Daf 87b
דְּנָגֵד לֵיהּ וְהָא אֲוִיר יֵשׁ בֵּין כֶּבֶשׁ לַמִּזְבֵּחַ רוּבּוֹ לַכֶּבֶשׁ כַּכֶּבֶשׁ רוּבּוֹ לַמִּזְבֵּחַ כַּמִּזְבֵּחַ
תִּפְשׁוֹט מֵהָא הָא דְּבָעֵי רָמֵי בַּר חָמָא יֵשׁ חִיבּוּר לְעוֹלִין אוֹ לָא תִּיפְשׁוֹט דְּיֵשׁ חִיבּוּר הָא לָא קַשְׁיָא תִּיפְשׁוֹט
מַתְקֵיף לַהּ רָבָא בַּר רַב חָנָן וְאִי אָמְרַתְּ אֲוִיר מִזְבֵּחַ כַּמִּזְבֵּחַ דָּמֵי עוֹלַת הָעוֹף דְּפָסְלָה בְּמַחְשָׁבָה הֵיכִי מַשְׁכַּחַתְּ לַהּ
הָא קַלְטַהּ מִזְבֵּחַ
מַתְקֵיף לַהּ רַב שִׁימִי בַּר אָשֵׁי אַלְּמָה לָא מַשְׁכַּחַתְּ לַהּ כְּגוֹן דְּאָמַר הֲרֵינִי מוֹלְקָהּ עַל מְנָת לְהוֹרִידָהּ לְמָחָר וּלְהַעֲלוֹתָהּ וּלְהַקְטִירָהּ
הָנִיחָא לְרָבָא דְּאָמַר לִינָה מוֹעֶלֶת בְּרֹאשׁ הַמִּזְבֵּחַ אֶלָּא לְרַבָּה דְּאָמַר אֵין לִינָה מוֹעֶלֶת בְּרֹאשׁ הַמִּזְבֵּחַ לֵיתָא לְמַחְשַׁבְתּוֹ
לְרַבָּה נָמֵי מַשְׁכַּחַתְּ לַהּ כְּגוֹן דְּאָמַר הֲרֵינִי מוֹלְקָהּ עַל מְנָת לְהוֹרִידָהּ קוֹדֵם עַמּוּד הַשַּׁחַר וּלְהַעֲלוֹתָהּ לְאַחַר עַמּוּד הַשַּׁחַר
לְהָךְ גִּיסָא מִיהָא תִּיפְשׁוֹט דַּאֲוִיר מִזְבֵּחַ כְּמִזְבֵּחַ דָּמֵי דְּאִי סָלְקָא דַעְתָּךְ אֲוִיר מִזְבֵּחַ לָאו כְּמִזְבֵּחַ דָּמֵי
וְאִי אָמְרַתְּ אֲוִיר מִזְבֵּחַ לָאו כַּמִּזְבֵּחַ דָּמֵי אֲוִיר כֶּבֶשׁ נָמֵי לָאו כְּכֶבֶשׂ דָּמֵי הֵיכִי מַסֵּיק לֵיהּ מִכֶּבֶשׁ לְמִזְבֵּחַ הָוֵה לֵיהּ יָרוּד
שֶׁקִּיבְּלוּ פְּסוּלִין וְזָרְקוּ אֶת דָּמוֹ מַאי לָאו שֶׁקִּיבְּלוּ פְּסוּלִין וְזָרְקוּ פְּסוּלִין
לֹא שֶׁקִּיבְּלוּ פְּסוּלִין אִי נָמֵי שֶׁזָּרְקוּ פְּסוּלִין
אֲוִיר מִזְבֵּחַ כְּמִזְבֵּחַ דָּמֵי אוֹ לָא תָּא שְׁמַע כְּשֵׁם שֶׁהַמִּזְבֵּחַ מְקַדֵּשׁ כָּךְ כֶּבֶשׁ מְקַדֵּשׁ
[Or] where unfit [persons] received and sprinkled the blood. (1) Surely that means, where unfit [persons] received and sprinkled the blood. (2) — No: [it may mean] that unfit [persons] received it or unfit persons sprinkled the blood. (3) The scholars asked: (4) Is the air-space above the altar as the altar, or not? (5) — Come and hear: JUST AS THE ALTAR SANCTIFIES SO DOES THE ASCENT SANCTIFY. Now, if you say that the airspace above the altar is not as the altar, then the air-space above the ascent too is not as the ascent; how then can one carry it up from the ascent to the altar, seeing that it is as having descended? (6) — He drags it. (7) But there was a gap between the ascent and the altar? (8) — When the greater part of it [the limb] is nearer the ascent, it is as though it were [on] the ascent, and when the greater part of it is nearer the altar, it is as though it were on the altar. Then from this you can solve Rami b. Hama's question, [viz.]: Is there a connective in [limbs which] ascend the altar or not? (9) Solve that there is a connective? (10) — That is no difficulty: Then solve it! Raba son of R. Hanan demurred: If you say that the air-space above the altar is as the altar, how is it possible for a burnt-offering of a bird to be disqualified through an [illegitimate] intention; surely the altar has received it? (11) R. Shimi b. Ashi demurred: Why not? It is possible e.g., where he declared: Behold, I pinch it intending to take it off to-morrow [from the altar], then carry it up again and burn it. (12) (That is well according to Raba who maintained [that] linah is effective [when the sacrifice is] on top of the altar; but according to Rabbah who held that linah is not effective on top of the altar, his intention [certainly] does not count! (13) — According to Rabbah too it is possible e.g. if he declared: Behold, I pinch it with the intention of taking it down before dawn and taking it up again after dawn.) (14) At all events, you can solve [the question] in the other direction, viz., that the air-space of the altar is as the altar, (15) for should you think that the air-space of an altar is not as the altar,
(1). ↑ V. supra 84a.
(2). ↑ The ‘and’ (Heb. 7) being conjunctive. This implies that only then do they not descend once they ascended, which further implies that they may not ascend in the first place. Hence, if unfit persons received the blood (naturally, in a service vessel) whilst fit persons sprinkled it, they may ascend (be offered) in the first place, and that must be because the vessels sanctified the blood to permit its sprinkling at the outset.
(3). ↑ And we are informed that even then the limbs do not descend once they ascended, notwithstanding that they were disqualified by the sprinkling.
(4). ↑ Emended text (Sh.M.).
(5). ↑ If one suspends disqualified limbs above the altar, is it as though they are on the altar itself and must not be removed, or not?
(6). ↑ For if it is not as the ascent, when he lifts it up to carry to the altar it is as though he had taken it down, and we learnt that if it descended it must not re-ascend.
(7). ↑ Up to the altar without lifting it up from the ascent.
(8). ↑ V. supra 62b. And when the limbs reach the gap, they are as though taken down.
(9). ↑ If the smaller part of a limb springs off, is it considered as still attached to the whole, and so must be replaced, or not?
(10). ↑ For otherwise each portion of the limb becomes disqualified as it enters the gap between the altar and the ascent.
(11). ↑ The neck of a burnt-offering of a bird was pinched (v. Lev. I, 15) on top of the altar, i.e., in the air-space above the altar. Now if the priest actually kept it suspended in the air-space above the altar until the next day it would be fit then for ritual burning, for disqualified sacrifices do not descend once they ascended (i.e., even if linah does disqualify when the sacrifice is on the altar). Since then it is fit for burning on the morrow, why should the intention to burn it on the morrow disqualify it, seeing that at the very moment that it is killed it is as though laid on the altar?
(12). ↑ This would be forbidden, as if it descended it does not re-ascend. Hence the intention too can disqualify it.
(13). ↑ For even if he kept it until the morrow on the top of the altar it would not be disqualified, so that if he took it down then he would still have to replace it. The intention to do this would certainly not disqualify it.
(14). ↑ If the sacrifice were actually on the ground at dawn it would be disqualified, and so the intention too disqualifies it.
(15). ↑ This is the conclusion of R. Shimi b. Ashi's argument: though R. Hanan's reasoning is faulty, yet one can argue in the reverse direction.
(1). ↑ V. supra 84a.
(2). ↑ The ‘and’ (Heb. 7) being conjunctive. This implies that only then do they not descend once they ascended, which further implies that they may not ascend in the first place. Hence, if unfit persons received the blood (naturally, in a service vessel) whilst fit persons sprinkled it, they may ascend (be offered) in the first place, and that must be because the vessels sanctified the blood to permit its sprinkling at the outset.
(3). ↑ And we are informed that even then the limbs do not descend once they ascended, notwithstanding that they were disqualified by the sprinkling.
(4). ↑ Emended text (Sh.M.).
(5). ↑ If one suspends disqualified limbs above the altar, is it as though they are on the altar itself and must not be removed, or not?
(6). ↑ For if it is not as the ascent, when he lifts it up to carry to the altar it is as though he had taken it down, and we learnt that if it descended it must not re-ascend.
(7). ↑ Up to the altar without lifting it up from the ascent.
(8). ↑ V. supra 62b. And when the limbs reach the gap, they are as though taken down.
(9). ↑ If the smaller part of a limb springs off, is it considered as still attached to the whole, and so must be replaced, or not?
(10). ↑ For otherwise each portion of the limb becomes disqualified as it enters the gap between the altar and the ascent.
(11). ↑ The neck of a burnt-offering of a bird was pinched (v. Lev. I, 15) on top of the altar, i.e., in the air-space above the altar. Now if the priest actually kept it suspended in the air-space above the altar until the next day it would be fit then for ritual burning, for disqualified sacrifices do not descend once they ascended (i.e., even if linah does disqualify when the sacrifice is on the altar). Since then it is fit for burning on the morrow, why should the intention to burn it on the morrow disqualify it, seeing that at the very moment that it is killed it is as though laid on the altar?
(12). ↑ This would be forbidden, as if it descended it does not re-ascend. Hence the intention too can disqualify it.
(13). ↑ For even if he kept it until the morrow on the top of the altar it would not be disqualified, so that if he took it down then he would still have to replace it. The intention to do this would certainly not disqualify it.
(14). ↑ If the sacrifice were actually on the ground at dawn it would be disqualified, and so the intention too disqualifies it.
(15). ↑ This is the conclusion of R. Shimi b. Ashi's argument: though R. Hanan's reasoning is faulty, yet one can argue in the reverse direction.
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